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The idea of fingerprinting images is silly. Anyone with irfanview or some batch image decompression/recompression tool can get around it with a single mouse-click. Unfortunately, these problems will simply not go away as long as it's possible for a user to create new accounts as fast as their old ones are closed. Sites like Ebay have invested a tremendous amount of time and effort adjusting the balance of their "economy" to figure out where the pain points are. You need to create complicating externalities (like: you forfeit your sign-in and membership fees, or lose your current auctions but still have to pay for them, etc) that prevent sockpuppetry.
For example, if photobucket didn't allow print from accounts that hadn't been paid for (and the account subscription fee is then held hostage) - the problem would simply move to somplace else.
Consider that this may be the cost of extending human nature into cyberspace. People suck; that's not going to change.
Eldris: I think a lot of this might have to do with short-sightedness. A lot of companies create features with a combination profit/service motive and don't realize how it can be abused. Let's hope that is the case.
Dorothy: The idea has worked well before, let us hope it can work out here!
Meredith: I can understand completely. Please let me know if there is anything that I can do to help!
Marcus: I have to first correct you and say that you can not defeat solid fingerprinting through trivial editing. This depends on the quality of the software, but many apps are not fooled by cropping, rotation, resizing, etc.
Regarding your "pain point" idea, I have agree that is a good point but I am not really sure how well that works with the PB system. YouTube has managed to create one by limiting the uploads on non director accounts, but even director accounts are still free, it is just a matter of surrendering more personal information.
This is something PB is going to have to work on in addition to these issues.
However, if there is one thing that this whole ordeal has taught me it is that, while some people do suck, most people don't.
I do have faith that the good guys still outnumber the bad.
DeathNoteGurl: Thank you for stopping by! Please let me know if I can help in any way!
Kara: I agree completely. Hopefully with this much momentum behind us, we can push PB to rethink their policies.
Danni: Lol. Things picked up pretty quick shortly after this post went up. So many artists have really taken this issue to heart and have started to get the word out. I am completely floored by this response.
I'm going to update the article, but it is already at 550.
Everyone: Thank you so much for your support and your help! I greatly appreciate all that you have done on this matter. I can not express how overwhelming this response has been.
Yup a lot of the big artists on DevART have put the word out and they have a lot of watchers who in turn will put news out too. Hopefully we'll get the numbers up into the 1000's soon.
It is rather timely, since I have recently been dealing with the whole issue of Photobucket. There is another facet of this whole thing that really bleeds out into completely uncontrollable areas of the internet where Photobucket is concerned: Layout sites.
I have found out that there are many places where people create Myspace skins, other layouts, blinkies, glitter graphics, etc. etc. - and guess where their number one source of material comes from? Yes, Photobucket. Through accident, ignorance, or plain ole' disregard, people have literally said to me that they considered Photobucket a "FREE RESOURCE SITE".... or stock site, convenient for layout creators to utilize.
So not only are the works available for download and printing, but they are also there for people to take and manipulate and make available for others to use.
To play devil's advocate to my own argument, any one of these people could come to my website or DeviantArt site and steal the image from there. But I control my website. I willingly put it up there and do what I can do avoid art theft. But Photobucket (and similar websites) takes that control right out of my hands.
The thing is, I don't mind if someone wants to feature one of my pictures on their blog. I've had many fans do that. They post the picture, give me a little free press, leave a link to my website - that's fantastic! That is how this whole art appreciation thing is supposed to work. Unfortunately, the way Photobucket works, it adds these other copyright infringing aspects to an account which otherwise might not have originally been created with 'stealing' in mind.
It really is an ugly festering problem.
Antonia: Thank you very much for stopping by!
Aimee: The layout problem with PB is a growing one and it is heightened by the fact that PB is designed from the ground up to be a sharing site. That isn't bad in and of itself, but most sharing sites let you embed your own images and place at least some restrictions on embedding other people's images. Most people think that, if there is a link to embed it, then it is ok.
In some cases that is actually true. If you encourage people to embed your images, you'd be a fool to complain about it later. But the problem is that so much of PBs images are infringing in and of themselves that the embedding is just another infringement.
Strangely, though I don't agree with all of their policies, I think Yahoo! Flickr has a good handle on this situation. You can only embed your own photos (correct me if I'm wrong here) and those image shave to reciprocate back to Flickr. They also prohibit the use of Flickr images in a layout.
It is much better than PB in this area.
Thank you very much for your feedback!
And to the members of DeviantArt - You guys are showing the art world how to stand up for your rights! Thank you all for joining in the fight - you are all just amazing!
I think perhaps more Artists will participate in this effort if we can explain more fully how this effects them, which is difficult to do in an easy way because it has so many far reaching aspects...
The image sharing thing is pretty rampant but places like PB (PhotoBucket) facilitate it - the mechanism is like a virus; one person uploads your image, the next person comes along and sees your image in this album and adds it to their own, and on it goes ad infinitum - prior to PB (and the like) each person at least had to find your site and take it directly from there, but now PB enables them. Then there is the code that PB provides that allows these 'public' images to be embedded anywhere - I understand that the ideal intent was probably meant to allow the INDIVIDUAL album owner to embed their OWN images on a Blog or personal web site, but as it is with all things, when excess becomes the norm - abuse of privilege sets in...
The sales aspect is probably not that bad (yet) but it has the potential to be - our reputations as Artist's are based on the integrity of our finished product. Under ideal circumstances, we the creators of our works should be the ones who oversee the quality of any reproductions - that is after all the idea behind licensing. The problem here is multi-faceted; given the inherent size of the images 'taken' no product of any real quality could be created, but with say an average size of 4.5 x 6-inches @ 72 dpi, a fairly reasonable one to one reproduction can be rendered and as you reduce the product size (stamps & buttons for example) the quality improves - Sandi ordered stamps which in size are 1.5 x 2" and being an Artist I can honestly say the quality is quite good! Thirty stamps for $4 - shipped and everything it's less than $8 - we can't compete with that, so potentially you end up competing against yourself - that's insult to injury. There are images on there however of some of the more well known Artists whose works have been uploaded at large enough dimension AND resolution to render more than exceptional results at much larger sizes...
In our case, if we had licensed those very same images to a company who makes stamps, well those unlicensed reproductions cause a potential problem - this 'conflict' could cast aspersions on our integrity, or that of any other Artist who also licenses their works. There is also the very basic principle of what copyright means - our inherent right to defend and preserve the artistic integrity of our individual artistic statements. When people post these works on web sites and blogs without attribution or a link/reference to the original author so that the viewer may see the work as it was meant to be viewed in it's original context, this undermines our artistic integrity which is our livelihood, because as we all know too well - in the world of art; "perception is everything." - and, how could people know to render that attribution if they acquire the work through an offhand way that never brought them in direct contact with its original author? It is very easy to be cavalier with concern to using images in this unauthorized fashion when the original author is nothing more than a faceless entity...
Being a "faceless entity" I believe is a part of the problem - we need to put a face on these Artists (all of us) - there was a Public Service announcement sometime back that was aimed at dissuading the pirating of DVD's - it showed the grips, the gaffers, carpenters, etc. who also work on those blockbuster movies and had them saying; "please don't pirate these movies because it effects our livelihood too" - it's very easy for the average person to justify pinching a copy of a DVD from someone they believe to have 'deep pockets' or endless resources - they don't think it would hurt MGM (or whomever) because to their way of thinking; "They've got billions, they won't miss this", but no one stops to consider the others involved... Not all of us have obtained the success to be thought of as; "millionaire Artists" - most of us are just regular people just trying to do what we do best. If we could create a similar public service announcement and circulate it on YouTube, well that would be something - no reason we can't make the same Internet that detracts from us now, also work for us as well - I think it is a matter of will and setting obtainable goals...
We have no delusions regarding an outcome - this cannot be magically resolved by a simple petition - this problem will always exist on some level, just like there will unfortunately never be an end to murder, rape, theft and all the other unfortunate aspects of human nature, but just because it cannot be ended doesn't mean we should not proceed anyway, for it can at least be diminished and THAT is something that didn't exist before the effort was begun...
The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step - this is our step. Art on the Internet is a new frontier - the problems are being identified, that's the easy part - forging the solutions and the guidelines for what is to come is the next step in that 'journey'.
This isn't just about the visual arts either, it's about all forms of artistic expression and you never know who might get on board - the Internet is a very big place so let's keep working towards our goal.
Thank you for your efforts on behalf of us all!
JW: I really don't have anything that I can add to what you said other than to encourage others to read it. I agree that there is a need to "humanize" this problem more and that is something we should look at in future rounds. I think that is an idea we can definitely work with!
Bob: Sadly, I don't even have a FaceBook account. If anyone wants to create a group for that purpose, I will gladly link to it here.
Diana: This is just a first step, there are other acts to follow. We're playing nice and trying to work together right now, if PB doesn't want that, then we will look at all other options. However, I'm putting my faith that PB is a good site run by good people and that they will want to do the right thing.
It's annoying. I wish there was something I could do to keep unimaginative, unoriginal art thieves from stealing my work but the only way to do that at this point is to not post it at all. I don't want to do that.
Rynnay: Thank you very much for your encouragement and for stopping by! If there is anything I can do to help with a specific case, please let me know!
And, when I signed the petition, I was number 1168.
I know how much time and effort goes into a print and, frankly, this entire thing with Photobucket is ridiculous.
Elizabeth: Definitely keep an eye out. This is a very growing area of concern on the Web.
Rae: We are doing our best, we sent the petition on to PB this morning so we will see what happens!
Val: Thank you very much for your support. I agree that this is pretty ridiculous, but I am holding out hope that it is an innocent mistake and can be corrected peacefully.
AJ: Thank you for your support as well. Hopefully we can get this matter addressed and then start to push on other fronts to make the Web a better place over all!
Mandie: Thank you for your support! We already have over 2300 signatories and the list keeps growing!
I SIGN THIS.
I will sign this. If I have time, I'll ask people to spread this petition and also asks them to sign this petition.
I have no idea if the releases are necessary, seems I recall something about anything photographed out of doors was fair game. But I felt that the good will of the buildings' owners should be important to a local shop owner who planned to sell the canvases.
This is all not to impress you with what a good girl I am but to lead up to how appalled I was to see how easily any image on PB could be stolen. I and a friend who lives a thousand miles from me share a PB account so we can share pics. We've kept it private, even though I can't imagine anyone wanting to steal the silly stuff we share. But, these days, you just never know. /;+)
Good luck on getting this initiative acted upon.
Tikurrui: Thank you for your support. I think you might be surprised though. Many people underestimate both themselves as artists and the desire for others to copy. I would be careful.
Rei: Thank you for your support and I would greatly appreciate any help you can provide in spreading the word!
Zaza: First off, thank you for your work in general in this area. To speak about the issue with the buildings, there is a lot of debate in that area. If a building is historical, it is probably in the public domain no matter what, but newer buildings have been the subject of much debate. Some believe they can be copyright protected, others don't.
I know that, from a privacy standpoint, anything you shoot from a public street or sidewalk is fair, but that does not necessary mean it is clear from a copyright one.
On that note, definitely keep the account private. The truth of the matter is that you never know. Besides, it's probably best for your purpose as you likely don't want to the world knowing everything you share.
Thank you again for everything!
Kara: I doubt such a law would ever fly. The reason is that when you are in public it is assumed that the acts you are doing are, well, public. First amendment rights would likely trump privacy rights here since there i no expectation of privacy in a public place.
Still, it isn't the strangest argument I've heard. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
Daz: The one flaw is that, in this day and age, copies can be as good as originals and this doesn't help areas such as photography where all originals are really copies, unless you sell the negatives.
Just something to ponder.
Photobucket needs to revamp their company and fast. All images found on the web are not free. Someone created them. If you take that image and do not give credit you are a thief. If you then try to sell those images as if you have the right, you are a fraud and a thief.
I am so glad you've written this article and help form that petition. Thank God someone is awake at the wheel! Although I'm sure you are one among many, even so, THANK YOU.
I've signed the petition. I hope Photobucket takes note and makes some policy changes and fast.
Tracye: Thank you very much for your support and I'm sorry to hear that you found so many of your images on PB. Please let me know if you need any help getting them taken down as I'll gladly do what I can!
i really hope that photobucket changes 3:
Its ridiculous. Photobucket needs to change, really. I mean, having a print on demand feature in my opinion is horrible.
Most people will disagree with me, even shout at me for my opinion, however I agree with this petition and hope it ends successfully.
Lillian: I stopped using PB too but I can't say it was because of this. If you have a Mac and want to use a more responsible service, I highly recommend Skitch.com. It's a great program and a great service.
Jennifer: Thank you for your support. Hopefully, with enough people like yourself, we can force real change.
Laina: I do indeed disagree with you and would love to discuss this in more detail later, but this is not the time nor the place. Right now what is important is that artists work together on this issue. I am glad that you support it. Thank you.
I wish you the best of luck!!
Traci: The whole matter is very frustrating but I am grateful for people like yourself supporting this!
I support this petition, basically. Yay for petitions!
No.
It's so very wrong to steal people's hard work and dedication.
All their blood and sweat goes into producing nice work for people,
and then someone completely selfish goes and steals it,
and then does not give any credit to the REAL artist!
Frankly it's sick.
As far as tips go, the watermark is best if you are comfortable with it. Also, keep your images lower resolution if possible. The higher the resolution, the bigger they can be printed.
Also, be sure to edit your EXIF data in your image to include your personal information. It may or may not make the image more searchable, but it can definitely help you prove ownership if needed.
Hope that helps!
Many people I find using or reposting my work honestly seem to feel that any image found on the internet is "part of the public domain" and that they are free to take anything they like and do what they want with it.... share it, sell it, chop it up into pieces and make art of their own with it... anything. Practices like the photo-printing service Photobucket has going on just make it all the easier for thieves to hold on to this attitude.
Honestly, it is hard for me to see where Photobucket wouldn't have even BIGGER problems because of this at some point down the road. You'd think bigger corporations and such that make millions of dollars selling licensed images of copyrighted characters would be upset if services like this become a trend. For example, what's to stop someone now if they want Harry Potter merchandise from just uploading a bunch of images to their Photobucket and making whatever they want instead of buying a mug, a shirt, or what have you legitimately? What happens if MILLIONS of people decide to do that?
Anyways... I rambled a bit, but really... I originally just wanted to let you know that I happily signed your petition and will be encouraging others to do the same. Keep fighting the good fight.
: )
I wouldn't want to be in PBs shoes when that happens.
Thank you for your thoughts!
I stopped using Photobucket when I read this, it's bad enough getting my art pinched on Deviantart, but on another site aswell! I agree with everything here.
If it does happen, let me know if I can help. I'll gladly do what I can!
Lynne
Bloggers need a site they can join where they pay a membership to use images for their blogs. I don't know why artists and photographers have not done this. Why haven't artists and photographers approached for example wordpress to provide such service for their millions of members. As great as photobucket is, there's a lot of stuff that I don't care to look at in addition to being very time consuming to go through tons of stuff I don't want. I think that there is a great opportunity being missed here not only by photobucket, but the artists and photographers themselves.
Hope that helps!
I checked both of those sites and they're not what I am envisioning. For instance you need to get invited to join Phototrade. You see the problem that we really have is that people are more concerned about protecting their work than of making a successful and viable bussiness of their work. And the people who have the technology are not thinking about the rights of the artists, but on how to attract millions of members in advertising dollars. No one should profit from somebody else's work, but to think that you can control this in any way with technology such as the internet is futile. What ends up happening is that artists end up getting their work stolen and making no money anyway. We should all have learned from the music industry's failure to take appropriate action to prevent the loss of millions in revenue from record sales. Once you get people used to not paying for something, it is very difficult to change that mindset, but you know it can be done because water is free and people still pay for it even when their own tap water is cleaner than what they're buying at the store.
Going after Photobucket is not going to change anything. Photobucket is a cyberspace playpen for people. It was never meant for for professional or commercial use. What needs to be done is to develop a service that does work and where everybody is benefiting. I believe that it can be done, but the mindset needs to change and someone with resources who cares about doing what is right to step up to the plate.
Thanks for your help.
Piczo work on the theory of fair use but if complaints are made about a particular image, they will take it down but is immediately uploaded again by the owner of the website.
On that note though, your solution sounds a great deal like the "take down stay down" system I mentioned in the article. They use it actively on Myspace for videos just not on PB for images. I agree it won't catch everything but it is a step in the right direction.
Thank you for your feedback!
that clear things up?
Firstly the printing issue, while I feel your pain I would note that a modern colour laser eg:
http://www.lexmark.com/lexmark/product/home/108...
is very cheap and able to produce prints that an untrained eye will not be able to distinguish from professional prints. And a print that is "good enough" can often be produced from almost any inkjet printer.
Because of this I would say a better solution to this issue would be notification, so the uploader is notified if the image is passed (directly) to the printing option. They can obviously do nothing about indirect or local printing.
As for fingerprinting, Marcus said it a year ago, it's silly, just because something exists for video does not mean that the same technique will be effective for a still image. The simplest reason is that it's a lot easier to do a minor edit to an image than it is to a video.
The fingerprinting issue has been licked elsewhere. When a company like Tineye, which is a tiny fraction the size of PhotoBucket and Fox can do very good fingerpriting, even when images are editied, it defeats that argument. See also PicScout for this one.